Mike
out of curiosity - why the table downstairs? To me it seems some of the elegance to not reproduce the same feature 2times - wouldn't it be easier to make the cockpit semi- protected? Open when you want it - closed when you need it? Think I would be willing to sacrifice some 'easy passage inside by moving cockpit slightly onto the hull)
(inside is for sleeping, cooking, head)
Some other thoughts:
Folding - think Farrier has proven bullet-proof - but Dragonly has demonstrated the wish for more 'marina'use. Personally I think I could live with teh compromise 3.5-4M wide when folded - demountable/additional work acceptable for incidental trailering.
Say you would have a LW hull of 36ft/11m - 2 ends folding to 30ft/9m. Saling width of around 5-6m, marina width 3.5-4M (probably good enough for 'dry sailing as well) -
Size/Cost - Think it is currently wise to go in the direction of 'less is more' given economy etc. Another thought I would be willing to investigate is a 'pop-up' part - for exaple around the galley. Again - 90% of tthe time you will not be cooking or 1.9M/6'4" headroom) Although it is compfortable. I I want to sail 'soon' I probaby need to keep the building costs down.. i.e. limited complex shapes
Fedor
--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, Gardner Pomper wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> > AUTOPILOT.
> >
> > As for an autopilot, I'd use a Raymarine ST-4000 tiller pilot. The
> > control goes inside, or at least at the cockpit, and just the mechanical
> > portion sits out, the base connected to the leeward hull, the end connected
> > to the tiller (not the extension). I use one of these on my catamaran with
> > great success. If patched into the nmea system, you can even have it steer
> > to GPS waypoints, or to the average wind direction of the last minute.
> >
> > So, would you just have 2 autopilots? One for each tiller? I guess that
> would be simplest, and somewhat affordable, since we are saving so much
> money on the boat .
>
> >
> > 12' FOLDED BEAM.
> >
> > I hear you about not being able to fit in a full-sized permanent cockpit
> > in to a 12' width while folded. I've tried, and if everything is just so,
> > it might be possible, but only if I skimp on the interior, the cockpit, or
> > both. Given that I'm shooting for a table inside, and a 6' cockpit, there
> > may be no way it can happen unless there's a funky system like your
> > Contrarry where the cockpit overhangs the leeward hull when folded.
> >
> > Going along with your idea of a removable cockpit (or Dennis'
> > flip/folding one), how about a 14' width to 16' width while folded, going
> > down to a 10' or even 8' width while trailering?
> >
> My current drawing gives a 14' beam while folded on the water. That is is
> with an interior table (4' width) plus a 4 1/2' wide removable cockpit.
> Since the table, galley and cockpit are all on the same level, I think that
> the cockpit is large enough. I can send you my drawings, if you like. I
> don't want to bother posting them to the group before Rob is finished with
> them.
>
> >
> > FOILS.
> >
> > Could you point me to an image of Todd's design with a fixed vertical
> > steering board? I think you mean the one here:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn8fr0PaUqg , but want to check
> >
> > If you went with this, how would you incorporate raising and lowering
> > the foils? Or would you just count on your hull design to counter leeway,
> > and have the foils raked way back for sailing in skinny water? And how
> > would that work with the hull profile you're planning on?
> >
> > That video does show the basic structure of Todd's rudder design. I don't
> have any drawings of my ideas right now, but I better get on that (if I
> want to convince Rob) . For now, just imagine that instead of just having a
> rudder attached to one of Todd's steering boards, you have a rudder case,
> like Rob's. That case allows the rudder to be raised and lowered, so if
> your blade is 8' long, it can go from a 2' draft to a 6' draft (or so). If
> the rudder hits something, the case pivots with the rudder, but the
> steering board stays vertical. That would also allow the rudder to cant 20
> degrees or so in order to stabilize the symmetric rudder. I have a
> mechanism in mind that would make that canting operation automatic during a
> shunt (it is tied in with the mainsheet).
>
> Overall, I am pretty happy with the layout. Hopefully I can get some
> builders quotes, which will give me a better idea if I am ever going to be
> able to turn the plans into a boat.
>
> >
> > - Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Gardner Pomper wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > Just a couple of comments:
> >
> >>
> >> BD has special draft requirements, as does Gardiner's plan to sail in
> >> the Chesepeake, and both could be nonoptimal with low-draft beam-mounted
> >> rudders. Without enough foil in the water, it's easy to go from laminar to
> >> non-laminar flow, and then the foils become a lot less effective. But such
> >> is the challenge with a 48' boat designed to sail in 3' water, and yet
> >> somehow be expected to hit 20 knots (by observers, not by the owner).
> >>
> > I don't want to sail at max speed (15 knots will do for me!) in 3' of
> > water! I just want to be able to sail at 5-6 kts in shallow water. I want
> > to sail at 15+ kts in deep water (> 30'). I even want to ghost along at a
> > couple knots in 1-2' of water (with a soft bottom, like mud or sand) for
> > anchoring. It is very important to me that the rudders raise, but it is
> > also important that they lower to 5' or so.
> >
> >> Just as important, rudders on the beam would permit simple tiller
> >> extensions all the way to the cockpit, which is something I'd definitely
> >> like to try. It's a simple system that wouldn't care one way or the other
> >> if the boat were folded or unfolded, won't stretch out of shape, and will
> >> be more fun than using a wheel. At least for me -- I much prefer tillers.
> >>
> >> I am not clear on the tiller idea. I would be happy enough with a
> > single tiller, but I am having a hard time seeing the use to two tillers;
> > sometimes one at a time (having to stow the other partway through the
> > shunt) and sometimes both (to be able to use both rudders). Am I just
> > missing some simple way to do this? Plus, I am not willing to give up on
> > autopilots when cursing, so how will that work?
> >
> > Because of these questions, I am trying to move forward with the idea of
> > using a wheel. As much as I love how clean Rob's new rudder desgn is, I
> > don't see how to make the steering simple. Instead, I think that Todd got
> > it right with his rudder design, where the steering board is fixed
> > vertically, and the rudder case is pinned to that board and kicks up
> > independently. That allows the steering system to work regardless of the
> > cant of the rudder, or to impact.
> >
> > Btw, I have also hired Rob to try to help put a design to paper with all
> > my weird-ass requirements (on water folding, fit in a shipping container,
> > etc). I think I may have had to give up on the 12' beam for trailerability
> > (sorry, I tried to put that one in just for you!) but for now, there would
> > be (minor) disassembly to make that happen (have to remove the removable
> > cockpit). When Rob has beaten some sense into me and come up with drawings,
> > I would also be happy to share with the group (with Rob's permission).
> >
> >> - Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>