Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Aspect ratio?
From: "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@networknow.org>
Date: 12/11/2008, 5:25 PM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Reply-to:
harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au

Hi Mike,


 I actually have gone with the idea of the 2 part masts. I will upload new drawings as soon as I get the rudders redrawn. The way I implemented the 2 part masts is with a 12' base section, that goes from the "keel" up through the hull and past the boom level about 1.5'. This way I can slide both the upper part of the mast and the boom into reinforced areas of that base section. This lets me have a bury for the upper part of the mast of 5', which brings the overlap down to the cabintop, and I end up with a 35' luff on a 39' mast section (1' of the luff is in the overlap). This way the mainsail track is just on the upper mast section and I don't have to worry about trying to mesh the track. Without the 2 part mast, I only ended up with a 28.5' luff, so I have gained 6.5'.

I am hesitant to take the rig any higher than the 45' off the water it will be, in that I only have a 16' beam. Did you send me a link about calculating the heeling force from sails? Because I thought I saw one, but now I can't find it. I want to make sure that I am not going to flip the boat.

Anyway, I appreciate the explanation on aspect ratio, but it is alot like many other discussions on the web. High aspect is better upwind. But what is "high aspect"? For a give sail area (say 500 sq feet), how much better is an aspect ratio of 5 (is that "high") versus 1 (I know that is low). Arto's correction of my aspect ratio calc gives me 3.125 for a 35' luff and a 14' foot for an 80% roach. His statement that 3 is a good compromise gives me some feeling that I am in the right ballpark. Do you agree?

If we say that we keep the luff constant, and just increase the foot and therefore the sail area, are we saying that the boat will continue to go upwind just as fast with the lower aspect ratio? that adding the extra sail helps downwind sailing and doesn't hurt upwind? It would just be "better" to have that same sail area by increasing the luff? So, if it is a choice between a 35' luff and a 10' foot, or a 35' luff and a 14' foot, I might as well go with the 14' foot because my upwind performance stayed the same, and my downwind performance increased?

Why is it with sailing that there are never SIMPLE answers? <grin>

- Gardner

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Mike Crawford <jmichael@gwi.net> wrote:


  The definition of high-aspect changes over time.  The more time goes by, the more sails start to stretch upwards, and the average aspect ratio climbs.  Generally, if it looks more like a wing than a traditional sail, it's high-aspect.

  No one needs high-aspect sails.  I watch some catboats with sails that are essentially square do wonderfully on broad reaches and runs, better than some mulihulls (unless they whip out a screacher).

  But there are two benefits from a high aspect ratio:

  - Better performance when reaching and beating.  This is because a substantial portion of the sails drive comes not from catching the wind on the windward side, but from the lift generated as the wind flows over the leeward side.  This happens on a relatively small portion of the sail, so a sail that's twice as tall will generate almost twice the lift, while a sail with a foot twice as wide might generate negligible additional lift.  Since your boat will be a fast, lightweight multihull (regardless of the which rig, rudders, and beams you choose), you'll have a great apparent wind, and will be able to put the sail's lift to great use.  If you want to scream upwind, high-aspect is quite useful.

  - More sail area higher up.  This will help in light winds, even downwind, when there's more wind at 40' than there is at 10'.

---

  You could easily argue that it's better to have a schooner rig, lower the center of effort, and give up that sail area up high.  The taller mast will be great for performance, but will require much care with reefing (and more reef points). 

  It's the classic tradeoff when considering a boat for both racing and cruising.  You can't have the fastest and the safest and the most convenient boat.  Rob's design allows a better compromise than most (weight to windward creates more righting moment, mast to leeward may prevent a capsize).

  Going to a 14' foot would definitely give you more downwind sail area without having to break out a third sail or kite. 

  By the way, have you looked at the outleader kites?  They can provide an insane amount of sail area when going downwind, with less hassle than a traditional spinnaker.

  Have you decided against a two part mast?  If so, I won't mention it again.  If you haven't written it off, it's worth looking into.  As nonsum_pisces mentioned, you could add on another six to ten feet without much hassle, even if you stick with an una rig.

       - Mike


 

 
Gardner Pomper wrote:

Hi,


I know what a sail's aspect ratio is (Luff/Foot), and I see mentions that a high aspect ratio is more efficient than a low aspect ratio, but I cant find any real description of how high it needs to be to be considered "high aspect ratio" and how much more efficient it is.

The containerizable design I have been playing with is limited to a 34' maximum luff. I started with a 10' boom, then increased to a 12'. In an extreme case, I could increase to boom to a max of 20'. What foot length is "reasonable" for a 34' luff? Is 34:12 low aspect or high aspect.

My sail area is about 550 sq ft (for both sails combined) with a 10' luff, 650 sq ft with a 12' luff and 750 with a 14' luff; all calculated with an 80% roach. I assume the 80% figure is harder to maintain as the aspect ratio goes down.

Thanks for any feedback,

- Gardner Pomper


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